Talk:Limburgish

Edits by ‎93.221.40.167

I would like to quote this IP

Article Essen: (closely related to Dutch). removed. This isn't even wrong.

Talk:Lower Rhine region:

Once in the article:

"Bergish .. is the easternmost dialect of Limburgish"

• Jan Goossens, Die Gliederung des Südniederfränkischen, in: Rheinische Vierteljahrsblätter. Jahrgang 30  1965, Ludwig Röhrscheid Verlag, Bonn, 1965, p. 79-94, esp. p. 79:

• ‚Südniederfränkisch‘ nennt man [..] die Mundarten, die in einem Raum gesprochen werden, der sich beiderseits der Grenze zwischen dem Verbreitungsgebiet der deutschen und der niederländischen Kultursprache über drei Staaten, Deutschland, die Niederlande und Belgien, in einem Dreieck Tienen-Remscheid-Eupen erstreckt. Als Seiten des Dreiecks kann man die ik/ich-Linie (Tienen-Remscheid), die maken/machen-Linie (Remscheid-Eupen) und die romanische Sprachgrenze (Eupen-Tienen) betrachten. [...] Der niederländisch-flämische Teil dieses Gebietes ist unter dem Namen ‚Limburgisch‘ bekannt [...].

• That is: South Low Franconian lies between Ürdingen and Benrath line (has ich and maken). Limburgish is the Netherlandic-Flemish part of it.

• Bergish is variously defined, see
  Peter Wiesinger, Strukturgeographische und strukturhistorische Untersuchungen zur Stellung der bergischen Mundarten zwischen Ripuarisch, Niederfränkisch und Westfälisch, in: Peter Wiesinger, edited by Franz Patocka, Strukturelle historische Dialektologie des Deutschen: Strukturhistorische und strukturgeographische Studien zur Vokalentwicklung deutscher Dialekte, Georg Olms Verlag, Hildesheim / Zürich / New York, 2017, p. 341–437

• p. 349f.: "1967 Erich MENGEL [...] 1. Südbergische Mundarten (südlich der Benrather Linie)"

• I.e. Mengel's Bergish includes some Ripuarian, which is not South Low Franconian.

• p. 422 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie north of the Ürdingen line (have ik).

• p. 437 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie in the area of "Randbergisch" which is part of "Bergisch".

• Hence some of Wiesinger's Bergish lies north of the Ürdingen line and isn't South Low Franconian (south of the Ürdingen line).

article Low Franconian

Georg Wenker used the term Niederfränkisch (Low Franconian) more in the sense of Ripuarisch. Cp.:

• Georg Wenker, Das rheinische Platt. – Den Lehrern des Rheinlandes gewidmet, 2nd ed., im Selbstverlage des Verfassers, Düsseldorf, 1877

• • p. 13: "Davon abgesehen aber ist Köln der eigentliche Mittelpunkt einer großen, die ganze Mitte der Rheinprovinz einnehmenden Mundart. Diese hat man die niederfränkische genannt, und unter dem Namen wollen wir sie uns denn auch merken. Nach Norden ist die Benrather Linie ihre Grenze, [...]"

• • p. 14: "Wir haben nun noch zu sehen, wie das Niederfränkische, also die Mundart um Köln herum, sich nach Süden hin begrenzt. [...] Welches sind nun die beiden Mundarten, die sich hier vermengen? Die nördliche ist die niederfränfische um Köln, wie wir schon wissen, die südliche aber ist der Moseldialect auf dem linken Rheinufer zu beiden Seiten der Mosel und der Westerwälder Dialect auf der rechten Rheinseite im Westerwald. Diese beiden, der Moseldialect und der Westerwälder Dialect, sind fast ganz gleich und man nennt sie auch zusammen das Mittelfränkische (und zwar die nördlichste Mundart des Mittelfränkischen, denn [...]).

• Jürgen Lang, Sprache im Raum: Zu den theoretischen Grundlagen der Mundartforschung. Unter Berücksichtigung des Rätoromanischen und Leonesischen, series: Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für romanische Philologie. Band 185, Max Niemeyer Verlag, Tübingen, p. 195

</ref> Most dialects and languages included within this category are spoken in the Netherlands, northern Belgium (Flanders), in the Nord department of France, in western Germany (Lower Rhine), as well as in Suriname, South Africa and Namibia.

and

North and South Low Franconian, classified like this:. Compare also:

• LVR-Institut für Landeskunde und Regionalgeschichte (ed.). "Dialekte im Rheinland". Retrieved 21 July 2023.

Article Limburgish:

Gossens (1965) distinguished the following sub-dialects:

• ostlimburgisch-ribuarisches Übergangsgebiet (East Limburgish - Ripuarian transitional area; Ürdingen, Düsseldorf, Solingen, Remscheid, Mönchen-Gladbach, Eupen)

• Ostlimburgisch (East Limburgish; Panningen, Krefeld, Dülken, Sittard)

• Zentrallimburgisch (Central Limburgish; Maastricht, Vroenhoven)

• westlimburgisch-zentrallimburgisches Übergangsgebiet (West Limburgish - Central Limburgish transitional area; around and southern of Genk)

• • Tongerländisch (Tongeren)

• • Bilzerländisch (Genk, Bilzen)

• Westlimburgisch (West Limburgish; Veldeke, Hasselt, St.-Truiden, Loon)

• südbrabantisch-westlimburgisches Übergangsbiet (South Brabantian - West Limburgish transitional area)

• • Ostgeteländisch (Beringen)

• • Westgeteländisch (Tienen)

From talk:Dutch dialects

South Low Franconian

Just a heads-up for watchers of this page: I've created the article South Low Franconian which covers the West Germanic dialect group spoken (or in some areas, once spoken) in three countries. I've strictly focussed on its linguistic features as presented in sources from Belgian, Dutch and German scholars and left ample room for debated views (which btw do not depend on the nationality of the author, as this article (Limburgish) incorrectly states in multiple places).

Since the scope of this article largely overlaps with the Belgian and Dutch area of South Low Franconian, there are quite a few redundacies in the new article, many of which can be resolved if material pertaining to SLF varieties in Germany is trimmed or removed here (most of which is unsourced anyway). Other details are maybe best discussed here as is (like aspects that mostly relevant to the situation in Belgium and the Netherlands, especially the language-political dimension), while others (e.g. linguistic features common to the entire area, or at least are distributed over the Limburgs and German Rhineland) are better covered there. Austronesier (talk) 18:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for creating South Low Franconian, I think it will prove to be most helpful in the future clean up of this article. Vlaemink (talk) 12:22, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Concerning the rewriting of the orthography section; / Spelling 2003 for the Limburgish dialects

Two days ago, I removed much of the orthography section from this article [1] and used what was there to create a new article Spelling 2003 for the Limburgish dialects. This is standard Wikipedia practice for cleaning up overly long and confusing (and/or self contradictory) articles, such as this one.

The dialects referred to as Limburgish in this article have no standardized orthography and multiple authors stress this. In fact, even the dialect association Veldeke Limburg, which created the 2003 spelling which was present in this article, explicitly states this. The new orthography section explains this clearly and refers to the previously present orthography in both the text and a see further-template beneath the heading. While no information was removed, what was removed were the various links to the website www.limburgsedialecten.nl, not just because this is a unreliable and unscientific source, but also because the website in question is no longer online. The same goes for the website www.limburgsespelling.nl.

So to respond to a recent revert of this edit, in which it was falsely and suggestively claimed that the previous "section" (two sentences, red.) was "dramatically rewritten" and that "well sourced" material was removed; [2]: neither is the case. No substantial information was removed and the previous iteration of the orthography section was not well sourced but is now.

This article is a mess and has been across at least three major Wikipedias since its creation. I am very grateful to @Austronesier for recently creating the South Low Franconian article, which hopefully can turn this article in less of a chimæra in the future. As for @De Wikischim, a user who has been blocked more than 45 times on the Dutch Wikipedia, is subjected to several arbcom restrictions on his edits and who has displayed a severe lack of NPOV concerning this subject as well as personal animosity, if not vendetta-like behavior on the Dutch Wikipedia towards those who challenge his personal POV; I'd like to make the following abundantly clear: this is the English-language Wikipedia, where WP:SOURCE is held in high regard and articles are not easily hijacked from further editing by poisoning the talk page or engaging in edit wars. You are hereby asked to take this into serious account and remain from any further nonconstructive if not obstructive editing. Vlaemink (talk) 10:57, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@De Wikischim: There is no need to have the same information about something in full in two places. That's what hatnotes to related articles are for. If a main article exists for the subtopic, a short summary is sufficient.

That said, @Vlaemink: is it really necessary to split out a section into an undersourced article (as of now, it has been tagged as such) when this main article is far from hitting the suggested maximal length of 100k? We have dozens of articles that contain sections about "non-official and non-standardized advisory spelling[s]". SIL has devised hundreds of practical orthographies that rarely become official due to repressive or non-affirmative minority language-policies in most countries on this planet. And when these spellings are in practical use, there is no harm to present them. When they are not fully accepted by the speaker community, we can say exactly that. As long as size issues do not arise, information about the spelling of a linguistic variety (regardless of its status as "language", "regional language" or "dialect") is best kept in the main article as an essential piece of information. And obivously, mentioning the Veldeke-spelling in this article is not WP:UNDUE, especially when you believe it is notable enough to get a standalone article. Austronesier (talk) 11:06, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: The article has been tagged as undersourced, because relies on a single source (as btw, did the material when it was still part of this article). Practically speaking, this is not a huge problem though as the article is basically a technical one describing a spelling system and the single source is the actual publication of this spelling system, i.e. there's not a lot that can go wrong in that respect. Nevertheless I'm in full agreement that more independent sources should be added to this article, for example focusing on the spellings actual usage, and I intend to do so in the near future.

As for the reasons for excising it from this article. First and foremost, it's because the emphases in the literature concerning orthography is that none of these varieties are standardized, which makes it odd to have an orthography section of which 95+ % concerns a strictly codified orthography. This unnecessarily distracts from the practical reality, which is that the spelling involved has no official status and is hardly used by any of the speakers of these dialects. However I do not at all oppose mentioning the Veldeke-spelling in this article, which is why I explicitly mention both the dialect association and the spelling it developed in the rewrite of the section ([3]), however I do not think the entire orthographic system should be placed in this article; but should instead have its own article, as many other spelling systems and spelling reforms do.

Placing the edit in a broader picture: this article is in dire need of being more concise, less self contradictory and far better sourced, if not being sourced at all. Its biggest problem has always been that it has consistently failed to meet the most basic of article conditions: to clearly define what it's about. As a consequence the article has been been growing and growing, aimlessly and mostly unsourced, for over a decade. In order to fix that, the article needs to get back to the basics and needs to be 'pruned'. Not necessarily in the gardening sense of the word, where material is removed, but at the very least by restructuring this article. Keeping the orthography section "general", while providing links to variously more detailed/specialized articles forms a logical part of that. Vlaemink (talk) 12:08, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

(just for now) Regarding "relies on a single source " » This article has already been sourced way better now (see Limburgish#Sources) than the current version of the corresponding article on the Dutch Wikipedia (which unfortunately, has deteriorated especially since least year and has been "frozen" as well by the Dutch arbitration committee (the members of which, I believe, do not understand the actual issue). I just explained here in the edit summary my reasons for undoing Vlaemink's rewritten version of the section "Orthograhpy".

@Austronesier: Actually this already has a long history, which indeed once began on the Dutch Wikipedia. Every few years, the vision "Linguistically seen, Limburgish is merely a subset of Dutch dialects" is introduced again (at least, attempts to do so are made). However, among the greater part of linguists/dialectologists, this vision has since long been abandoned. This happened first especially on the article nl:Limburgs and more recently here too, especially since last year.

For the rest, sorry to say it (if it may sound like some kind of accusation...) but I still consider it very likely that Vlaemink, who has used this account since 2019, was active on this same subject already in the (far) more distant past, using several earlier accounts (a part of which has since long been blocked on the Dutch Wikipedia, among others for sockpuppetry). As for my part, I remember having encountered for the first time at the end of 2009 a single-issue-account on nl:Limburgs which showed an edit pattern very similar to Vlaemink's current one (that is, changing big parts of the article dramatically without trying to reach any consent on the talk page first, including the removal of material which had already been well sourced, and introducing almost exactly the same aforementioned vision regarding the linguistic status of Limburgish, combined with much edit warring). De Wikischim (talk) 16:38, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Please refrain from bringing off-enWP drama here. We simply don't care about it here. Stick to the topic and tell us why you want to have these tables in two places instead of one. I have explained why I think it better placed here, but anything is better than what you are currently producing. –Austronesier (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

For me, this mainly concerns the text above the tables, not especially the tables themselves. The old text (which I just restored again) was both well-sourced and more in line with the rest of the article compared to Vl.'s new version of the section. So I think at least that part of the old section should be kept. The tables below the text (from "Alphabet") are again another separate issue. De Wikischim (talk) 16:55, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Clean up of unsourced material (november)

Over the years as well as more recently, various templates and cite-tags have been added to this article, requesting reliable and valid sources for many of its claims. While WP:SOURCE very clearly states that any material that requires but lacks citations may be removed immediately, I'd like to ask any followers of this page to add sources to what is questioned/unsourced within a period of three weeks. Instead of removing the disputed material outright, I think it's more practical to allow for a grace period instead of repeatingly having to go to the page history to re-add material if sources can be found. Following this period, I will remove the sections for which no sources were provided. Vlaemink (talk) 12:21, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

This article has been flooded by edits that range from blunt language advocacy to an atomistic focus on taxomony. Limburgian linguists have produced fantastic research in last 30 years or so (not to forget older works by Goossens), but little of it is echoed in this article (except for the phonological parts by User:Sol505000, one of the few quality editors ever having touched this page lately). It's a pity for such a beautiful topic. –Austronesier (talk) 16:16, 13 October 2024 (UTC)