Talk:Democratic Party (United States)

Political position

Why don't the American political parties have "political position" as a category in their info boxes? Like where it would say "center-left"? Almost all wiki pages about political parties in other countries have this category. 150.108.240.134 (talk) 22:34, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

It has been discussed before. Everyone has a different opinion on where various ideologies fit into the political spectrum. The articles already state party ideology in the info-box. There is no need to add where Wikipedia editors place these ideologies in the political spectrum. TFD (talk) 23:00, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Can you point me to these discussions? I am having trouble finding them and I don't think this is a particularly strong argument. American political parties should not get special treatment simply because a lot of editors have opinions on it - but my mind is open. Carlp941 (talk) 16:32, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

nevermind - found em. I still don't buy the arguments posed, I find them quite off base. Plenty of big tent parties that have a similar character to the Democrats and Republicans have their political positions labeled.

but I can accept that there is no consensus for change for now. I found the attempts at change to be poorly thought out as well. I think people can get "center left" from the ideologies for the democrats and can get "right wing" from the GOP ideologies. Carlp941 (talk) 16:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Can you name any other parties that have no control over membership or who their members nominate for office? In some states, such as Vermont, the party has no membership at all. Can you name any other parties that don't have members? Also, neither party has a statement of ideology. Also, primary elections run by government is fairly uncommon. TFD (talk) 16:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

That is a non-sequitor. Unique party structures do not do away with a political position. Did the European Greens temporarily surrender their ideology by having open primaries for the 2013 European parliament elections? Did the French Socialists suddenly become non ideological because they started to hold open primaries in 2012? Of course not. Every political party has a unique context - they are still ideological and have a place on the political spectrum. Carlp941 (talk) 17:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Could someone revert the edit saying that the Dems are Centre-left? They have so many diverse factions and their economic policy certainly isn't Centre-left so this is inaccurate 101.119.138.41 (talk) 07:35, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I would definitely agree. There are a number of sources noting that the party has notable centrist and conservative/right-leaning factions. While I don't deny that there are certainly some "social justice warrior" progressives in the party, they've become a big tent (even "conservative") party of anyone supportive of the constitutional status quo as opposed to the radical right (says The Atlantic). If we're going to put a political position in at all, it should be "big tent" or "center" (since that's where the party "establishment" mostly is) with a note that the party has also has a substantial left-leaning faction and a somewhat smaller right-leaning faction. PtolemyXV (talk) 05:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC) PtolemyXV (talk) 05:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I would say the most accurate definition would be centre left to centre right. This would include members such as the squad, who fit the profile of centre-left social democrats in many countries, as well as moderate Democrats who are most akin to centre right politicians in peer countries. 184.145.1.225 (talk) 03:58, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Political position

I believe that 'centre to centre-left' is a fair and unbiased position. There are many sources which mention both centrist and centre-left ideologies in the Democratic Party. Any other position is very rare to be supported by a party member. Andrijator (talk) 10:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I concur with the above. Aficionado538 (talk) 02:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

What is your definition of centre-left? (And don't just say it lies somewhere between center and left.) TFD (talk) 02:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Centre-left politics support government intervention to a state in which there is still a mixed-market economy, however with social welfare programs. The strongness of those programs varies in different ideologies, e.g. social liberalism and social democracy. Andrijator (talk) 11:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

All major parties in Western democracies support this. The Democrats however are less supportive than right-wing parties in other countries. TFD (talk) 13:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree with this. The previous RfCs on this topic haven't been particularly persuasive, especially when put into context of similar discussions of other political parties. The US isn't "special" in this regard. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 23:02, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The U.S. actually is special. It has two parties, neither of which have a statement of ideology or enforces ideological conformity. IOW you cannot be expelled from either party for any reason and you cannot be stopped from running under their banner. Furthermore, state governments are involved in the nomination process by running "primary elections." Can you name any other country in the world that has this system? TFD (talk) 13:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

how does that make it special? Lots of countries have unique political systems. Lots of parties don't state an overriding ideology and have factions. That's why we rely on secondary RS Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The issue with the US is that its media is incredibly insular so they make their own definitions of the political spectrum Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Every country has its own political spectrum. There is no "global political spectrum". There's maybe regional ones - like, say, in Europe, or to some degree the US and Canada - but there's no global spectrum. Toa Nidhiki05 13:59, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that other regions have different political spectrums with the centre being at the top of the bell curve, but there is a global one regarding ideology Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The position on the spectrum parameter is there to make cross country comparisons easy for the reader Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:24, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree, WP:OR and my impression, but on the worldwide political spectrum, the democrats are centre-left to centre-right, and the republicans are right wing to far-right Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The Democratic Party is not, in fact, center-right. Toa Nidhiki05 14:06, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

They certainly are from a European perspective. Economically they are centre-right. Socially idk, I’d say centre Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:48, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Not even from a European perspective, but why is Europe even relevant here? Toa Nidhiki05 14:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The European spectrum seems to be used as the ‘global spectrum’ on Wikipedia when looking at other regions’ political pages. Neo-liberalism is centre-right in Europe, which the democrats champion. Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I've seen no evidence of this, but even if it was, they aren't a center-right party, and this article isn't about a European party. Toa Nidhiki05 17:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

First, Wikipedia is aimed at an international audience, not the U.S. specifically. Second, although Americans use the terms left and right, liberal and conservative, in a different way when describing their politics, academic literature in the U.S. uses internationally understood definitions, even when describing U.S. politics. So for example U.S. conservatism is normally categorized as a sub-branch of liberalism. TFD (talk) 17:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s good academics use internationally recognised definitions, I didn’t know that. Surely that makes it easy to put something in the political spectrum parameter? Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

When looking at the tax cuts for billionaires alone that democrats demand, they are larger than every other party proposal except the far-right republicans. 2603:8000:A301:1A0:510:AAFF:ABF:843B (talk) 17:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

See for example,"Liberalism and Modernity" in The Age of Ideology: Political Ideologies from the American Revolution to Postmodern Times (John Schwarzmantel NYU Press, 1998), p. 68: "Liberalism,in its broadest sense, was a philosophy or set of ideas that gave primacy to the idea of individual freedom, the freedom of the individual as the supreme social unit, untrammelled by interference from the state, other individuals or society as a whole." Conservatism is described as either "to deny modernity and return to a premodern society" or a "criticism of modernity and its features." (p. 64) Premodern means before 1500.

So there's a book from a U.S. academic publisher using the same terminology as people outside the U.S. The debate in the U.S. is not about whether or not to accept liberal principles, but how they should be applied. The term conservative entered usage when FDR used the term to defame his opponents.

TFD (talk) 16:02, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I would agree if it weren't for Trumpism which is illiberal, it seems liberal principles are wholly accepted among academics but not the population. I was under the impression conservative meant conserving/preserving tradition and generational commons to preserve perspective which make up an ethnic identity/nationality, so it's about managing change rather than opposing it. Trump is a regressive, not a conservative Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:44, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Bigotry is very useful for lots of people, it props up their ego, there needs to be an alternative for individualist and egoist societies rather than just imposing liberalism. Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:47, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Center to center-left versus center-left

It appears a general consensus has been reached across the several talk page sections about the political position of the party, and that the consensus is the political position should be added to the page. However, there appears to be disagreement over whether the text should state "center to center-left" or just "center-left."

I have included several of the sources I've found about this topic below. Thank you Toa for trimming some of the other sources I found that were not as reliable as these (I included the The New York Intelligencer as it is a reliable source as per wikipedia).

References

Notelist

BootsED (talk) 01:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Support center-left, with centrist and left-wing factions. Some of your sources are older, before the Democratic Party lost its more conservative-leaning Southern faction in the 2010s, except for African Americans and some urban areas in the South. Sources:

References

JohnAdams1800 (talk) 02:37, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Center-left, the only stance with reliable sources. Our most reliable sources present the party as center-left, without qualifications; the most reliable presents it as a near opposite of the GOP. The center-left by definition includes both the center and left, making the clarification of "centrist and left-wing factions" utterly redundant. Also, re:Intelligencier - it's an opinion piece, and it's a wildly opinionated one presenting the Republicans as a fascist party. It's not reliable for anything other than Levitz's opinion. Toa Nidhiki05 03:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Strongly oppose, as has been said before, the party is way too much of a big tent to make a definitive position. Both major parties in the USA are big tents, the ideology section is a much better way to figure out what the party stands for. And to reiterate another point made before, the party is not on the left on the international scale. The only compromise I'd consider is Big tent (perhaps listing centrist and centre-left factions). GlowstoneUnknown (talk) 12:00, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Strongly Support, as there are Big tent parties that has political position listed for example Liberal Party of Australia is considered a Big tent conservative party listed as Centre-right to Right-wing plus political position is mostly listed from the standards of the individual country (e.g. compare Conservative Party (Norway) listed as Centre-right and Republican People's Party classified as Centre-left even though the latter is more conservative). Mhaot (talk) 13:04, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

The Liberal Party is considered a broad church by its members, sure, but broad strictly on the right. The Democrats have factions to the left of centre and right of centre. Hence my "big tent" suggestion. GlowstoneUnknown (talk) 13:58, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

The Democrats do not have any right of center factions. Toa Nidhiki05 14:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree with @Toa Nidhiki05. The conservative Democrat faction has steadily declined in the 21st century, as Democrats lost power in the South. The Blue Dog Coalition has just 10 members (it peaked at 54 in 2009) and moved left in recent years, Senators Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin became independents and won't run in 2024.

Bill Clinton would be considered a very moderate or Blue Dog Democrat by today's standards, not including his record on LGBT rights. Bill Clinton supported the death penalty, enacted a welfare reform law, deregulated the telecom and financial industries, and was lukewarm on labor unions (see my Vox source). JohnAdams1800 (talk) 14:20, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Of the four sources above, Guardino and Snyder are largely irrelevant. They do not describe the party as centrist, they comment on its efforts to reach agreements with the right-wingers. Marantz is talking about moderates dominating the party, not centrists. Rae describes the party as both liberal and center-left, attributing this direction of the party to the influence of the civil rights movement. Levitz describes the party as centrist (not center-left), but also implicitly describes it as militaristic and imperialist. According to him, the party's goals include the maintenance of a "globe-spanning military empire". Dimadick (talk) 14:30, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I am changing my support to center-left. I have found additional high-quality sources that I believe should put the question of whether the Democratic Party is "Center-left" or not to rest.

References

BootsED (talk) 00:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree @BootsED, political positions mostly takes into account the standards of the individual country (e.g. compare Conservative Party (Norway) listed as Centre-right and Republican People's Party classified as Centre-left even though the latter is more conservative). Mhaot (talk) 13:15, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose What's Left of the Left: Democrats and Social Democrats in Challenging Times defines center-left as "a variety of political forces, among them social liberals, social democrats, democratic socialists, progressives, greens, and human rights campaigners." (p. 5) Others, including most editors in this conversation, may define it differently so for example by excluding democratic socialists. It's circular: if by center-left we include the ideology of the Democratic Party, it is center-left. OTOH, if we define centrism as liberalism, then the party is centrist. TFD (talk) 16:56, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

  I think this is covered by the factions section only having centrism and progressivism, not democratic socialism, greens, and whatnot. The book also describes European center-left parties, which are generally more left than the American center-left, and which it acknowledges followed a different historical path than the American Democratic Party. While I was collecting these sources I came across another one that expounded on this point. I will have to find it again and add it here. BootsED (talk) 21:31, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

  Like @Mhaot said, political positions take into account the standards of the individual country and independent sources, and generally not international standards (which are hard to define). JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:57, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

  The Democratic Party is an outlier in the book because it is the only major that does not have Marxist roots. While Marx was advocating the overthrow of capitalism, Democrats were building capitalism. However, it is the most left-wing of the two major U.S. parties, is identified with minorities and labor, and like Marxist parties it has moved to the center. In Europe however, liberal parties tend to occupy the middle ground between social democrats and conservatives.

  While I understand that in some contexts, the Democrats can be seen as center-left, in other contexts, they can be seen as centrist or center-right. It is misleading to describe them as center-left without explaining what is meant. The footnote should say, "By center-left we mean socialist and green parties and, in the United States, the Democratic Party." TFD (talk) 02:02, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

"the only major that does not have Marxist roots" The Democratic Party was founded in 1828, when Karl Marx was 10-years-old. Both the Democratic Party and the preceeding Democratic-Republican Party were populist parties which represented the American variations of classical radicalism.Dimadick (talk) 02:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

The Democratic Party is not socialist or green. There have been many discussions over putting in "democratic socialism" or socialism as a faction of the party and all have failed. Why would we put a footnote saying that the Democratic Party is "socialist and green"? BootsED (talk) 13:56, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Most of Europe uses a multi-party system, while the English-speaking world uses first past the post voting, which by Duverger's law incentivizes two parties. If you want to compare the Democratic Party internationally, consider comparing it to the Liberal Party, Australian Labor Party, or Labour Party (UK) because those nations have two major parties.

Because of the party's size, environmentalist and socialist positions tend to be represented by say the Congressional Progressive Caucus, not individual coalitions. 2610:20:6B73:240:0:0:0:B096 (talk) 21:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

The Democratic party began before the Communist Manifesto, and before the Civil Rights movement, was a combination of two coalitions--Southern Democrats and Northern Democrats, symbolized by Andrew Jackson (Tennessee) and Martin Van Buren (New York). See the article on Southern Democrats for their full history, while Martin Van Buren stayed loyal to the Union (he died in 1862).

Northern Democrats became pro-labor after William Jennings Bryan toppled the Bourbon Democrats in the 1896 presidential election, and continued with FDR's New Deal in the 1930s. Southern Democrats, which for nearly a century (1877 to 1964) became known as the Solid South, were obviously not a left-leaning coalition; it was reactionary and white supremacist, disenfranchising African Americans and poor Whites. User:JohnAdams1800 (talk) 21:41, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

An additional source with more information on how the Democratic Party is further to the right than European left-wing parties, and how there is no strong socialist or equivalent "left-wing" movement in the United States. I think with this source, there shouldn't be any more confusion that there are "socialist" elements within the center-left Democratic Party, which I believe should satisfy TFD's concerns.

References

BootsED (talk) 03:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the Democratic Party is not a Labor party like the UK Labor Party or Germany's SPD. Part of the reason is the Southern United States, which is heavily racially polarized--White evangelicals in the Bible Belt vote nearly as Republican (80-90%) as African Americans vote Democratic (85-95%). But a party can still be center-left without relying on organized labor, and instead be focused on issues such as abortion rights and environmentalism.

The party is instead comprised of well-educated White voters and racial minorities, particularly African Americans. It could be called postmaterialist among White voters, because educational attainment in the United States is highly correlated with income and wealth. I have three sources for this.

References

JohnAdams1800 (talk) 17:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

It depends what your definition of center left is. It seems like a term created in order to group European Socialists with Democrats. What information does it provide readers about the Democrats that the ideology box doesn't? TFD (talk) 19:27, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

TFD, the very Wikipedia page for center-left politics does not list European Socialists with the Democratic Party. Specifically in the lead of the page, "Centre-left politics are contrasted with far-left politics that reject capitalism or advocate revolution." I don't think people will be confused and think that the Democratic Party are socialists. Also, we have a lot of sources now that use center-left to describe the current Democratic Party. Pending some change in this, I think the argument for center-left is strong at this time. BootsED (talk) 20:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Current proposal

For a refresher for those confused with all the references listed and the addition and removal of some of them, this is currently how the political position and the sources used to describe it are proposed to appear.

Political position Center-left

References

BootsED (talk) 20:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Support, because it explains the Democratic Party as ideologically less cohesive (though the Republican Party in recent years has more factions) and center-left. The "Polarized by Degrees" source explains how the Democratic Party is center-left but differs from Europe's center-left because it relies more on the college-educated instead of organized labor. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 17:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - I went ahead and added center-left as there's very clearly an overwhelming consensus for it. Toa Nidhiki05 17:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Support center left as the sole position. These sources are excellent. Carlp941 (talk) 03:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Support (see sources and comments above). DN (talk) 03:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Mixed oppose Change to "center to left wing" to encompass both the Blue Dog and New Democrat Coalitions, and the Congressional Progressive Caucus. Dhantegge (talk) 13:12, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I really dislike this usage, it is ambiguous and confusing. What does it mean? That reliable sources have variously described it as "centrist" and "left-wing"? If so, why not have a footnote explicitily saying this with a list of sources? I would avoid "Left-wing" at all for the same reasons explained by TFD. Is it meant to describe the factions within the party, as you seem to imply here? Why not actually add a proper "Factions" parameter to the infobox as I tried to do years ago because users keep adding anyway an artificial Factions: parameter (as is also done here for the "Ideology" parameter in this very article) so we can list either official factions and/or ideological wings? In such cases, I would just put "Center-left", "Centrist", "Center-left", "Left-wing", or "Right-wing", and have a footnote explaining why the party has also been described the other way and the scholarly debate.

In the case of Democrats, I would go with "Center-left" as that is the more common indicator in the United States (or "Centrist" if we go by scholarly groupings as explained by TFD) and "Right-wing" for the Republicans to underscore their much more significant rightward case. Same thing for the Labour Party and the Conservative Party in the UK, as the Labour Party is a member of the centre-left European grouping whereas the Conservatives are members of the right-wing (not center-right) European grouping and also underwent a rightward shift. In all cases, I would just have a footnote concisely summarizing the debate rather than ambiguous and confusing "Center-left to left-wing" or "Center-right to right-wing". Same thing for "Ideology": in the case of Democrats, I would just list liberalism, linking to the "Modern liberalism in the United States" article, and have a footnote explaining the other ideological factions within the party and do it at an historical level not limited to recentism (after all, if we are going with the ambiguous "to", why not actually summarize the party's historical position on the spectrum and explain the reversal between the Democrats and Republicans from left-wing to right-wing and vice versa? That would be much better and clear than this ambiguous "to" usage), while finally creating a proper "Factions" parameter where we would list and link the Blue Dog Coalition, New Democrats, the Congressional Progressive Caucus, and the like. Davide King (talk) 16:07, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose As I mentioned earlier, these terms have no fixed meaning and therefore create ambiguity rather than clarity when used without context. Note that "What's Left of the Left" cited above defines center-left as the Democratic Party in the U.S. and social democratic parties abroad before saying the grouping is controversial. Can anyone explain what additional information this field provides beyond what is already stated in the ideology field? TFD (talk) 17:16, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support either "Center-left" (per the reliable sources and because it effectively acted as the center-left party in the United States) or "Centrist" (per TFD, who I think raises several important and interesting points and that I hope can be further discussed at Talk:Centre-left politics but that a footnote can address), with a footnote. Oppose any "to" wording usage, which is ambiguous, as I outlined above. While personally favouring "Centrism" (per TFD), I think the presented reliable sources are enough to support "Center-left". I also support the current footnote, and as long as it explains this, discusses the scholarly debate (I would add a summary of the whole evolution of the party and do the same for the Republicans), and reflects that, to quote TFD, "By center-left we mean socialist and green parties and, in the United States, the Democratic Party", I am perfectly fine and in full support of "Center-left (with footnote)".
• Personally, I like "Centrism" because it represents the "Big tent", which I would not use because it is not a proper political position on the spectrum, of the Democratic Party, which is a liberal, not social-democratic, party. Internationally, even left-liberal parties, despite its ideological name, are centrists who effectivly act as the center-left parties, such as in Canada (with the social-democratic NDP as center-left) or the United States. But I would still group them as centrists because the centre is always moving, and just because they may not be equidistant between the Left or the Right, and thus be closer to the center-left, it does not mean they automatically became center-left just because the spectrum and thus the center moved rightward
• At the same time, I think "a variety of political forces, among them social liberals, social democrats, democratic socialists, progressives, greens, and human rights campaigners" does not necessarily exclude left-liberal, and thus I would include both democratic socialists (e.g. left-wing social democrats) and social liberals, rather than exclude one or both; I would group more radical democratic socialists as left-wing and closer to what was known as "Marxist centrism" (e.g. even many radical democratic socialists are in fact both reformists and revolutionaries, and even when advocating revolution, they see it more as a democratic revolution rather than a violent one). Also there is a fact to consider left-liberals as center-left, even in the United States: there was an early 20th century liberal, whose name evades me (never mind, I found him: it was Herbert Croly) who rejected the view that American liberal tradition was inhospitable to anti-capitalist alternatives. So even from a more left-wing perspective, American liberalism can be considered center-left. And that is why I also personally support "Center-left" as an accurate grouping for the Democratic Party.
• As an addendum, I think that I believe must be discussed in regards to Center-left politics is its evolution, because it makes it appear as though anti-capitalism is only a far-left position when in fact it was taken by center-left social democratic parties in the 20th century, with the difference being that the center-left was more moderate and pragmatic, and attempted more to trascend capitalism through reforms rather than overthrow it by revolution. Thus, were the pre-World War II social-democratic parties left-wing or center-left, or did they become center-left in the post-war period? I always assumed they were center-left (like the modern center-left, they were more reformists than revolutionists) and that was changed was the political climate and the Overton window. Plus, were the revolutionary liberals far-left? The French Revolutionaries were not all far-left, and in fact far-left was used to refer to those further left of the Jacobins, like the Hébertists, and the Jacobins (revolutionaries) were left-wing. I think this should be clearer and discussed within the context of center-left politics, with a section expanding on the American context. Davide King (talk) 17:23, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2024

Political position should be Center to Center-left and political ideology should be Social Liberalism, Third Way and Faction: Progressivism 2600:1700:DB70:3750:64C4:DD0C:49A7:E7D3 (talk) 20:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Discussions are ongoing literally right above this request. Join them. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:53, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2024

This political party is listed as center-left. It would be more accurate to claim this institution is center-right.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746.amp 2603:8000:A301:1A0:510:AAFF:ABF:843B (talk) 17:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. your link does not mention the Democratic party or even the words center or right Cannolis (talk) 19:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

To be considered left wing, you have to be anticapitalist. Both American political parties are owned by corporations. They are directly responsible for following the views of those who give them donations. That is how freedom of speech works in the United States.

The left starts at anti-capitalism. At bare minimum you have to side with workers over corporations. Alextitmier (talk) 01:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

1). nobody is suggesting that the majority of the Democratic Party is “left-wing”; there is a substantial difference between “center-left” and “left-wing”, and discourse on this talk page has made that clear.

2). while there is a significant amount of corruption within our government, most, if not all, of it is consolidated in factions that are pro-business, such as the NDC, which adheres to “third way” liberalism. corruption is not particularly common in a faction such as the CPC, which adheres to “social liberalism” (considered to be a “center-left” ideology) and fits your “bare-minimum”, obtuse narrative of anti-capitalism (simply siding with workers over corporations).

3). although you believe the Democratic Party should be listed as “center-right”, you can’t provide a reliable source (or any source, really) that supports your claim. even if factions such as the BDC and NDC are capitalist and adhere to “fiscally conservative” policies on the economy, that doesn’t necessarily make them “center-right” in political science.

4). it would be better if you could actually defend your argument instead of making two different threads to push your narrative. 71.254.80.96 (talk) 05:18, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2024

“Please change Democratic Party to Democrat Party”.

Reasoning:

There is a Republican Party (not a Republic Party) which consists of individuals dubbed Republicans (not Republics) There is likewise a Democrat Party (not a Democratic Party) which consists of individuals dubbed Democrats (not Democratics). 2600:1006:B115:E801:51DE:FFA4:C67A:6D1B (talk) 15:11, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Incorrect, the party is called the Democratic Party. — Czello ^(music) 15:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

More to the point, that's a pejorative epithet. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems right-wingers think democrat sounds bad, democratic sounds good. If the use of “democrat” as the name is wrong, there should some discussion of this in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:4300:EE90:CDF3:43A:6271:51B9 (talk) 18:24, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

It's just silliness. Several years ago, they almost renamed the Democrats the Democrat Socialist Party. TFD (talk) 02:52, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

thoughts on ideology/position

I understand there is discourse on both the Democratic Party and Republican Party Wiki talk pages over their respective ideologies and positions. Because there are a lot of factors in this discussion (including personal bias, political affiliation, and overall coherency), it’s no surprise no one can seemingly agree with each other. With that in mind, I believe it’s important for a party’s ideology and position to be labeled generally but also correctly on Wiki. Analyzing the Congressional House caucuses of the Democratic Party, it’s fair to label its “ideology” as “progressivism” and “liberalism”; this takes into account the fact there are two major caucuses that disagree with each other over economic policy (“third way” in the NDC and “social liberalism” in the CPC) yet still adhere to the tenants of “liberalism” and “progressivism”. However, factions such as PSC (“centrism”) and BDC (“fiscal conservatism”) shouldn’t be ignored either; therefore in the “factions” section of “ideology”, it’s only fair that “centrism”, “fiscal conservatism”, “social liberalism”, and “third way” should be listed. As far as the Democratic Party’s “position”, per analyzation of the caucuses, it should be “center to center-left”. While many argue that it should include “center-right”, many also forget that the BDC no longer adheres to “social conservatism” and that no faction of the Democratic Party adheres to an economic policy that is explicitly on the right (“fiscal conservative” policy is usually referred to as centrist and is derived from “economic liberalism”). While many argue that it should not include “center”, many also ignore the fact that the largest caucus (NDC) barely touches the Left. I hope this helps the discussion. 71.254.80.96 (talk) 15:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

That's too much detail for the info-box and belongs in the body of the article. TFD (talk) 02:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2024

The ideology says "center-left", which is inaccurate. The Democratic Party is in total support of capitalism. They are a center to center-right ideology. Alextitmier (talk) 01:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 02:00, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

NPOV; the "diploma divide" affects us as editors--do you have a college degree?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It appears the diploma divide has only grown stronger, per Pew Research data. I'm a graduate student applying to PhD program in statistics this fall, and recognize the irony.

For those with post-graduate degrees--63% Harris, 32% Trump. For those with just a Bachelor's or Associate's--51% Harris, 41% Trump. For those who attended but didn't graduate--44% Harris, 46% Trump. And those with HS or less--38% Harris, 53% Trump. This is a monotonically increasing trend between education and support for the Democratic Party.

Link: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/08/14/the-presidential-matchup-harris-trump-kennedy/ JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:05, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Editors are supposed to ensure that articles reflect reliable sources, not their personal opinions. I would point out that most sources, especially academic literature, are usually written by people with college degrees as well. While that may cause a bias in reliable sources, it's not something that Wikipedia articles are supposed to question. Basically, if someone comes here, they want to see an article similar to what they would see in an introductory polisci textbook. TFD (talk) 02:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree, my point is the lead of this article on the Democratic Party is written in a more favorable tone, and fails to mention the 2021-2023 inflation surge--instead describing an "increasingly progressive economic agenda," which likely violates NPOV. The policies may be ideologically progressive, but the price increases and polling point to the contrary in terms of effect.

Also the sheer number of discussions on Talk:Republican Party (United States) over the party's ideology and place on the political spectrum, and thinly-veiled disagreement over many of its positions, is likely because most editors have college degrees. See actor-observer asymmetry, where we are less able to recognize that the trend (educational polarization) affects us as well.

Side-note: I'm not a registered Democrat or Republican. But being graduate student and seeing the statistics on educational polarization explain a lot. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 19:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Neither of the sources say the Dems have an "increasingly progressive economic agenda," The first source, which argues it does, says that the consensus is it doesn't. The second source says that the neo-liberal paradigm, pursued by both parties, has been challenged by Sanders on the left and Trump on the right.

This seems like a case of deciding what the article should say, then finding sources rather than identifying the best sources and summarizing what they say.

It's a lot easier to challenge text on the basis that it is unsourced or wrong than to argue NPOV. TFD (talk) 23:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 15 August 2024

I believe that the political position of the party should be changed from "Center Left" to "Majority Center to Center-Left" With Factions listed as Center-Right and Left Wing. The Democratic party is a big tent party and this is widely known and established. The prominent policies and economic views reflect social liberalism and third way politics, and the party does not resemble other center-left social democratic parties. The party's RILE score is also sourced as placing it as a center to center-left party. Listing it as center-left is misleading and assumes the idea that the Democratic party has a prominent view of social democracy, which is untrue. BH018123 (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Please provide reliable sources that support the changes you want to be made. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 21:31, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Woodrow Wilson has an RfC

Woodrow Wilson has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Emiya1980 (talk) 03:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

RfC on Biden's presidency in the lead

I'm looking for a consensus on whether to change or remove this sentence in the lead. I support keeping the sources.

• "During Joe Biden's presidency, the party has adopted an increasingly progressive economic agenda."

Reasons:

• Biden withdrew from the 2024 election, and he will serve only one term. This itself is extremely notable, and may be worth putting in the lead instead.
• The sentence fails to mention the 2021-2023 inflation surge, or that Biden ended 2023 with a job approval rating of 39 percent, the lowest of any president since 1979. Biden's presidency has not been viewed favorably by the public, even if the party's agenda is ideologically increasingly economically progressive.
• Biden is still the incumbent president, and there are other events that could be mentioned. Also, Biden's presidential legacy will almost certainly be affected by the winner of the 2024 presidential election.

JohnAdams1800 (talk) 16:32, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Being forced out of the 2024 race publicly by members of your own party & donors, because it's believed you've no chance of winning re-election, isn't an overly good legacy. I'm not certain how to handle this. GoodDay (talk) 17:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

References

• Remove The statement isn't supported by sources, is an extraordinary claim and happens to be false. TFD (talk) 18:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Martin Van Buren has an RfC

Martin Van Buren has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Emiya1980 (talk) 01:59, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Final Reference to Consolidate

I consolidated most of the references that were duplicated except for the NYMag.com one. This particular one has one source with no quote and another with one. Should they remain separate or should they be consolidated in some way? Ztormtrooper (talk) 19:09, 24 August 2024 (UTC)