Talk:Big Ben

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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on April 10, 2012, April 10, 2015, April 10, 2017, April 10, 2018, April 10, 2019, and April 10, 2022.

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2024

Could someone amend the spelling mistake "extention" to the correct "extension", in the first line of the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.56.144 (talk) 12:46, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done – By another editor. Dhtwiki (talk) 20:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lifts in Big Ben

There are two lifts in Big Ben which are used by the maintenance team to access the Belfry. A passenger lift in the ventilation shaft and a platform lift from the top of the ventilation shaft to the Belfry. The lifts are used by the maintenance teams to access the clock workings and bells instead of walking up the 334 steps - https://www.stannahlifts.co.uk/case-studies/elevating-safety-and-accessibility-inside-well-loved-global-landmark 217.33.2.197 (talk) 09:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Name origin

Youtuber JDraper has found an article from the Times archive and shown it on video. she says the article is from 1856 and we can clearly see how the text of the article talks about how the bell just arrived in Westminster. The article also states that "Big Ben" has been proposed as a name in honor of Benjamin Hall. So if someone has the patience to verify the archives and make at link to the times article, the wiki article could be updated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.137.68.147 (talk) 15:55, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The YouTube video is here. The Londonist gives a rundown of relevant press articles. In their list the text apparently found in The Times archive was, at least in part, first printed in the Evening Standard of 22 October 1856. Dhtwiki (talk) 04:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead, should it be Big Ben or Elizabeth Tower?

It seems there is a dispute whether to start this article with "Big Ben" or with the "Elizabeth Tower" at the beginning. AFAIAA this article has always started with "Big Ben" until @A.D.Hope changed it in October 2023 and since re-instated it. May be a slow edit war? Better for a discussion. Under MOS:BOLDLEAD ideally we start with the article title as its WP:COMMONNAME rather than use the uncommon "official name", unless this article is to be moved to Elizabeth Tower?

Pinging those who appear to have disputed it since the change was first made last year, @Dr Greg, @SilkTork, to explain their reasoning for some consensus. Dank Jae 18:21, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reasoning for having 'Elizabeth Tower' first, as far as I'm concerned, is simply that it's easier for readers to explain the terminology that way. I realise that this will always be somewhat subjective, but in my opinion

Big Ben is the nickname for the Great Bell of the Great Clock of Westminster, and, by extension, for the clock tower itself, which stands at the north end of the Palace of Westminster in London, England. Originally known simply as the Clock Tower, it was renamed Elizabeth Tower in 2012 to mark the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II.

Does not flow well, and it is unsatisfactory (although not massively) that the official name is left to the second sentence. As a side note, I'm fairly sure that 'Great Bell' and 'Great Clock' should not be in bold, and that the clock is not actually called the 'Great Clock'. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:32, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the title of the article should be recapitulated early in the lead. Also, "Elizabeth Tower" is both long-winded and of recent vintage, however official and deservedly so. How many people naturally refer to the clock and its tower by the latter designation? Dhtwiki (talk) 23:03, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that a two word name of fourteen letters in total is 'long winded'. A.D.Hope (talk) 08:00, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per MOS:LEADSENTENCE, WP:OFFICIALNAMES, and WP:ASTONISH we should use Big Ben in the lead. An editor's personal opinions carry little weight when measured against accepted usage, guidelines, or policies. I think it's worth directing editors to WP:BRD when they have been bold, but have been reverted. After being reverted it is considered best practise to discuss the reasons they made the changes rather than simply reinstating their contested edit. However, I do agree with A.D.Hope that 'Great Bell' and 'Great Clock' should not be in bold, as they are not redirects to this article. I have now made the appropriate edits, though discussion may continue to see if there are other changes that should be made to the lead. SilkTork (talk) 14:06, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SilkTork, since reverted by @Ex nihil. Note the original change to Elizabeth Tower never got consensus in the first place. Dank Jae 16:19, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I since reverted the recent edits to the lead to the original, in the order as it was when it lasted for a few months this year (then years before the first change to it last year). But I agree that Great Bell and Great Clock probably shouldn't be in bold. But I guess we need consensus on that too first.

Changing to Elizabeth Tower first was a bold edit without consensus, so we should restore the original wording until consensus is here to use Elizabeth Tower instead of Big Ben. Dank Jae 16:28, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I don't think that arguments which rely on links to the MOS carry much weight unless they also give an opinion on how the MOS should be applied in a particular case. Arguments which rely on essays carry even less weight if they are unsupported.

In this case, looking at MOS:LEADSENTENCE, while incorporating "Big Ben" into the lead sentence is possible, it is not necessarily desirable. When a subject has an official name and a nickname, it makes sense to define its name before its nickname. This is particularly important in this case, where the nickname is applied to three distinct subjects – the tower, the clock, and the bell. Using the official name first allows the nickname to be explained clearly and in natural language.

If you read the 'Elizabeth Tower' version of the lead outside the context of Wikipedia and its manual of style, would you think it was confusing or otherwise inadequate? A.D.Hope (talk) 16:33, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, the MOS is very clear, we use the common name first as in the title, we don't automatically prioritise official names. But if the common name and the official name are different forms of the same name, like at United Kingdom, then we start with the full name. There is no MOS policy prioritising official names, rather just one editor policy? Nonetheless, you reverted the long-standing lead unilaterally without consensus. Just saying "the MOS is wrong here" isn't a good argument either.

If you dislike the MOS, call to change it there. If we don't start with "Big Ben" as most people know it as, but the "Elizabeth Tower" many readers would think they're on the wrong article.

If there are three distinct subjects here that need clarifying, that the common view of grouping them all as "Big Ben" is "officially incorrect", then raise a SPLIT. Dank Jae 16:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A strict interpretation of the MOS is wrong here, as it forces the lead to use unnatural wording. The topic of this article is not the nickname itself, but the tower and its clock (including the bells), but the lead sentence has the nickname as its subject in order to conform with the MOS.

I'm not going to call to change the MOS, because the section in question works perfectly well for most articles. I don't think that a split would address the issue, as the common name would still be 'Big Ben' in each case. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have been thinking about this, and it seems like there are two options. There might be more, but I haven't hit on them yet. The first would be as above, to simply use 'Elizabeth Tower' before 'Big Ben' as it allows for better phrasing. I really don't think that doing so is a violation of the spirit of the MOS, but that's not for me alone to decide.

The second would be to treat 'Big Ben' as primarily the name of the tower. This would allow the first sentence to be "Big Ben is the clock tower of the Palace of Westminster in London, England", which correctly identifies the subject of this article as the tower, and by extension the clock and bells within it. This would need some form of consensus. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:01, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Prioritising the official name over the common name is also unnatural wording. I think the long-standing lead is the best for this complex situation, as no one had thought of any alternative, aside dropping Big Ben.

Elizabeth Tower, commonly known as Big Ben, is a clock tower
Big Ben, officially the Elizabeth Tower, is a clock tower
Big Ben refers to a bell, clock, and clock tower

are all technically incorrect or as unnatural to say. While we don't need to be MOS strict everywhere, still believe the name most people know it as must be first, even if it makes defining it more harder.

While making this article's lead focus on the Elizabeth Tower rather than the "Big Ben" grouping is as unnatural. The only thing that groups this article together is the clock tower with an uncommon name, and the misapplied common name itself. Prefer the latter scenario, hence I assume why "nickname" is the description. Most people know this as Big Ben, but the most known structure isn't actually Big Ben. Dank Jae 17:20, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A possible rewording of the first paragraph could be:

Big Ben is the common name for the clock tower which stands at the north end of the Palace of Westminster in London, England. The name originated as a nickname for the tower's Great Bell, but, by extension, is also used to refer to the Great Clock of Westminster and the tower itself. Since 2012, the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II, the official name of the tower has been the Elizabeth Tower. The clock is a striking clock with five bells.

The first sentence is short and to the point. The use of the phrase "the common name for" already hints that this isn't the official name.
The second sentence clarifies that the name also applies to the bell and clock.
The third sentence, for clarity, explicitly uses the phrase "official name", to contrast with "common name". The name can hardly be ignored because it's in bold font.

I'm not entirely happy with this because the first sentence isn't the whole truth without the clarification of the second sentence. But does that really matter? Dr Greg talk 18:28, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]