Wikipedia talk:No original research

SYNTH: imply vs infer

WP:SYNTH says do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion .... Shouldn't that be "infer a conclusion"? RoySmith (talk) 19:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Since this is giving advice to writers, "imply" is correct. A writer implies conclusions and a reader infers them. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

But, I was thinking of the editor reading the source and drawing inferences from different parts. RoySmith (talk) 20:37, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with editors reading sources and inferring conclusions based on different parts as long as they don't write article text that implies those same conclusions. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree, but in that case, "reach" also needs to either be changed (to "state" for instance) or removed. M.Bitton (talk) 20:43, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, "imply" is correct but "reach" is ambiguous here, as it can refer either to the editor reaching that conclusion for themselves from their reading of the source or reaching it for the reader in their own writing. Either remove "reach or" or, perhaps better, replace "reach" with "lead to". Largoplazo (talk) 20:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

How would you feel about M.Bitton's suggestion of "state"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:18, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not Largoplazo but the reason I prefer "reach", or even "suggest" is:

• Source A: In summer, ice cream sales go up.
• Source B: In summer, more people experience wasp stings.

"Ice cream causes wasp stings" -- states a conclusion not found in the sources.

"Ice cream tends to correlate with wasp stings" -- reaches or suggests the same conclusion, but doesn't state it explicitly.

"Ice cream correlates with wasp stings because both rise in summer" -- ought to be permissible IMV.

Hope this helps explain.—S Marshall T/C 08:21, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Reaching a conclusion doesn't suggest a conclusion, it's a firm arrival at it. Anyway, you really aren't addressing what I had in mind regarding "reach", so let me try to express it differently. My point was based on "reach" being ambiguous, standing in equally well for "infer" and "imply". I might reach some conclusions from my reading of a text; in a text that I'm writing, I can make arguments and reach conclusions from them in my presentation to my reader. The reader may then read my arguments and reach a different conclusion from their reading of them than I had reached by the end. What they infer may be different from what I implied. Largoplazo (talk) 22:59, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Right. You're not responsible for what they infer, you're only responsible for what you imply. We might replace "reach or imply" with "suggest"?—S Marshall T/C 07:07, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Infer: deduce or conclude (something) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements.

reach (a conclusion): to make a judgment or decision after a period of thought or research.

Imply: indicate the existence of (something) by suggestion rather than explicit reference.

State: express something in writing.

Since the first two (infer and reach) are about the editor's reasoning, then we have no control over them and there is no need to mention any of them. On the other hand, the last two (imply and state) are about what they shouldn't do when adding content to an article. In other words, they are free to combine material from multiple sources to reach or infer a conclusion (for themselves) not explicitly stated by any source, but they cannot imply (hint at it) or state it (say it to our readers) when adding content to an article. M.Bitton (talk) 12:28, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Emphasizing what is included in the above posts, this is guidance for the writer/editor and so needs to be about actions of the writer. "State" is one of those but not really the subject of this thread. "Reach" is not explicitly an editing action (although it may lead to one). Infer is a reader action. So of the of the others, only "imply" and "suggest" meet this criteria and between those I think "imply" is better. North8000 (talk) 13:26, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

"State" is also the subject of this thread as it's meant to replace "reach". M.Bitton (talk) 13:40, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Replacing "reach or imply a conclusion" with "state or imply a conclusion" seems straightforward enough to me. I think it's a good idea as it would improve clarity. Gawaon (talk) 14:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

+1. The gist of my original concern was the mis-match between "reach" and "imply". I was going to fix that by changing the "imply" part, but changing the "reach" part as suggested here also works. RoySmith (talk) 14:05, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

(ec) Of course you are right. My thinking was that "state" is a much more severe violation. I was thinking that including "state" might weaken it. Sort of like adding "don't drive at 100 mph over the speed limit" to a "don't drive over the speed limit" statement. But having "imply" in there covers it so I'd be OK with "state or imply". North8000 (talk) 14:08, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

This is  Done. There were three instances of "reach or imply", and they now all ready "state or imply". WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:15, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Is there any need to have this both ways? While reading sources editors shouldn't reach or infer any conclusions not found in those sources, and while writing editors shouldn't state or imply conclusion not found in sources. I always took the sentence to mean the latter (writing), and that the former (reading) was implicit, but should it be specifically defined? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:05, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

We don't need both. The reading part was mentioned in this discussion because of the word "reach", which once replaced, will make the sentence (about the writing) even clearer. M.Bitton (talk) 16:20, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

We also can't control editor's minds. Reaching conclusions (in one's mind) is not and cannot be forbidden. But that shouldn't influence how the known and verifiable facts are presented to our readers. Gawaon (talk) 16:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Clean up

Please cleanup the page Vizhinjam International Seaport Thiruvananthapuram. It contains lots of original research with promotional tone. If you check the lead itself, the references does not even cite the said statements. 117.230.88.192 (talk) 10:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

SYNTH & CALC

I'm disagreeing with another person off-wiki, and I wanted to inquire here to clear things up.

We've an BLP on Jiminy Flibbertigibbet, and in all other respects than what I'm asking, it's above-board. We only have two sources for his birth, CNN says "24 September" while NBC News says "1959". We've no reason to disbelieve either, but there's no other corroborating source that fully states that his DOB is "24 September 1959". (a) Does WP:SYNTH prohibit using the Wikipedia's voice to say 'his DOB is 24 September 1959'? (b) Does WP:CALC supersede SYNTH and allow us to use the Wikipedia's voice to say 'his DOB is 24 September 1959'?

I searched the talk archives, but didn't find any discussion about the intersection of SYNTH & CALC; if there's one I missed, can somebody point me there? Thanks for indulging me, all. I'd hate to be wrong, but I equally need to know if I am. Cheers, — Fourthords | =Λ= | 19:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Shortcuts

@WhatamIdoing The reason why I pinged you was for the revert of my edit to 2 more shortcuts. In what manner, does a policy/guideline state that a specific number of shortcuts can be listed at the target page? How can that be irritating to readers/editors? It was just 2 shortcuts. Not a bajillion that would make the page inaccessible to read. If you can link a page that states the number of shortcuts that are to be displayed at the target page, please do so in the reply for this topic. Thank you; ѕιη¢єяєℓу ƒяσм, ᗰOᗪ ᑕᖇEᗩTOᖇ 🏡 🗨 📝 02:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The guideline is at WP:LINKBOXES. Usually, one link is enough. Sometimes we want two. It is very rare for us to benefit from having four.

If you look at the page views for the four redirects you proposed – click on https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-20&pages=Wikipedia:NOR%7CWikipedia:OR%7CWikipedia:ORIG%7CWikipedia:ORIGINAL – you'll see that there is a clear division between the two that get used all the time and the two unpopular ones you just added. The two popular ones get used an average of 2,700 and 1,300 times a month. The two you just added get used 200 and 4 (yes, just four) times per month. A redirect that gets clicked through 1/1000th as often as the other two is not "common" and should not be put in the linkboxes per the LINKBOXES guideline. This comparison of nine different shortcuts indicates that while there were less-bad ones than the ones you chose, only the two original should be included.

Similarly, if we count the number of links, we get:

• WP:OR – 162,000
• WP:NOR – 58,000
• WP:ORIGINAL – 4,800
• WP:ORIG – 84

There is a clear and steep drop-off here. The third one gets used less than 10% as often as the third. The fourth is so unpopular as to be pointless. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

On the subject of why a multiplicity of shortcuts is bad: One of the iron laws of the internet is that every click costs you readers. In our case, the 'reader' is a Wikipedia editor, and we know that a substantial number of editors will not click on all the shortcuts in conversations. When editors use a wide variety of words/shortcuts to refer to the same thing, we end up with conversations in which one editor says that "WP:BBQ" requires X, and the other says that "WP:TLA" requires the opposite, and neither of them realize that they're talking about the same guideline.

No sensible industry or academic field encourages people to use a wide variety of terms or abbreviations. They try to standardize on one or two (e.g., "flu" and "influenza") so that they can reduce the opportunity for confusion. Here at Wikipedia, we already have enough confusion without advertising alternative names for the same thing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Understandable, so the TL;DR is that the more a redirect/shortcut is used, the more likely it is to be on the target page having a shortcut list. Thank you, I was about to do another edit to WP:NULL involving WP:ø but that won't work bc the number of visits are too low. ѕιη¢єяєℓу ƒяσм, ᗰOᗪ ᑕᖇEᗩTOᖇ 🏡 🗨 📝 03:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Personally, I try to look for a cluster, rather than a strict cutoff line. If you have one obviously popular one, then you should use that. If the shortcuts in second and third place are both about the same, then I'd usually choose either both or neither, rather than the slightly more popular of those two. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

New articles based on primary sources

WP:PRIMARY currently says "Do not base an entire article on primary sources" but this does not conform to existing practice. Here's a couple of examples,

1. As discussed at WT:NSPECIES, species articles are routinely created without much in the way of secondary sources.
2. WP:PRIMARY also says that "For Wikipedia's purposes, breaking news stories are also considered to be primary sources" but numerous articles are created every day about breaking news such as natural disasters, political events, sports results and other topics which are routinely featured at ITN.

So, the statement seems to be a counsel of perfection which doesn't correspond to what we actually do and so, per WP:NOTLAW, needs qualifying or softening.

Andrew🐉(talk) 17:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)